Drummer Can't Make a Track for My Guitar

Drummer won't record w/ click (ISSUE?)

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Helloooo! I'm new, so I hope this question is in the right place ^_^
I have concern about my drummer not using a metronome..

I'm working on an EP & a friend of mine has offered to drum. The problem is that he's insistent on using no click at all.

Let's say there's no way of convincing him to use one. period.. what should I do when in the edit to remedy this so it's not a bitch when recording guitar/bass/midi since I'll wanna use a click for accuracy sake. We're also using real drums, no midi drum kit.

What are all my options..? and more importantly, am I worrying a bit too much about this?

Thank you in advance
Also I use Logic X

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paying a pro drummer is actually free
I had a drummer do 9 songs in 9 hours the 10th song was done by the singers brother it took us 10 hours to record one song ....
hire a pro because sometimes free is not really free

Gear Guru

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_R_S ➡️

paying a pro drummer is actually free
I had a drummer do 9 songs in 9 hours the 10th song was done by the singers brother it took us 10 hours to record one song ....
hire a pro because sometimes free is not really free

This

It's always interesting to me when a musician who is not internationally revered or successful by any metric lay down their own house rules.

If you're stuck with the guy, have him track one tune without a click. Hopefully he poops the bed and is all over the place. Cue up the tune and call him in to listen... Then solo his drums against a click track and just tell him... Love the energy but your timing is all over the place... Then fire his punk a$$ and buy superior drummer 3

If you insist on live drums, your options are to get a new drummer or spend literal hours with the razor blade manually quantizing this guy before you track. I know which one I would pick!

It depends on his playing . Does he sound like a drum set falling down a flight of stairs or does he fit in the band's groove regardless of his tempo slowing down or speeding up here and there?

If it's the former then what you should do is program the drum part he is trying to play using a soft synth drum machine and then let him hear what the part is supposed sound like, timing-wise.

If the latter, then you have two options. You can program the drum parts and let the rest of the band record the songs to those or you could have the guitarist or bassist fill in as a "human metronome" by recording a scratch track that accompanies the drummer while recording the drums. Which you choose depends on whether the band loses its feel when recording over the programmed drums. You'd be surprised how many albums were recorded without a metronome and don't sync to a steady tempo, despite sounding tight.

Either way, when mixing you can reduce the apparent sloppiness by triggering the compressor(s) and gate(s) sidechain(s) with the programmed drums instead of the live drums. This will downplay the sloppiness because any drum hits that aren't in time will be outside of the loudest portions of the volume envelope. They'll still be there but the attack transients of any off-tempo hits will be quieter and less obvious while the loudness as a whole will not be noticeably affected if you get the compressors set correctly. If the drum part is busy or complicated then use the metronome to trigger the compressors instead with a slower release time. You can also set a slight tempo delay on the snare or kick (whichever is tighter to the groove) before the compressor to reinforce the groove and distract the listener from off tempo hits.

Finally you can push the drums back in the mix by setting the level lower than you normally would and then applying a band-pass to reinforce the effect that the drums are behind everything. A warm, washy reverb will further the perception of being passive.

To make this work, the bass or guitar, whichever has a tighter rhythm and more interesting sound should be present in the mix and have percussive dynamics to mask/supplant the attack of the drums.

I've noticed that a lot of music is mixed with extremely quiet drums. Remember, something has to be in the forefront of the mix. Everything can't be dominant, even though it will sound good to you to hear every detail of every instrument, a successful mix has a background and a foreground that is shared by taking turns. In this case don't give the drums a turn during parts that are less than tight, keep them as far behind in the mix as you possibly can.

Can 'em and hire someone else

Thank you very much for the feedback guys.
Since he's actually a very good drummer I'm confident in his ability to pull off a great recording, and since I don't currently have the option to hire anybody else this is my only option. He's been doing this thing for years so he definitely know what he's doing, he fits the style perfectly also.
It's just, no matter how perfect he is, I'm guessing he isn't going to record with robotically perfect tempo simply due to natural human error, this is want to be able to work around, to be able to make it a little easier for myself when recording everything else.

Lives for gear

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRDYQRTZ ➡️

Thank you very much for the feedback guys.
Since he's actually a very good drummer I'm confident in his ability to pull off a great recording, and since I don't currently have the option to hire anybody else this is my only option. He's been doing this thing for years so he definitely know what he's doing, he fits the style perfectly also.
It's just, no matter how perfect he is, I'm guessing he isn't going to record with robotically perfect tempo simply due to natural human error, this is want to be able to work around, to be able to make it a little easier for myself when recording everything else.

Very good drummer= robotically perfect tempo.

Allot of drummers are unable to play to click tracks. Its mainly because they play in real time without thinking too far ahead of the changes going on. They can jump to a verse chorus. a break, intro or ending but its all short term memory stuff. Its not like they can take a piece of paper and map it out for you.

Your best bet is to get a drummer who is formally trained and can read sheet music. They will have a much better sense of being a participant who backs others vs someone who leads others.

The problem with many drummers is ego. They get nailed down to playing a specific beat they feel restricted and start making mistakes. So much of what they play is based on feeling not thought. Like I said they may think ahead a few measures for the next break and have vague ideas where things go but its not like working with someone formally trained who can play a song blocked out from beginning to end.

I'm not knocking the drummer who isn't formally trained either. I've worked well for raw emotion the guy who hangs ten and goes with the flow is much more likely to pull off brilliant performances compared to the guy who counts by numbers.

What your problem is learning how to work with either one. You have a live drummer so I suggest you forget about using a click track, quantizing or any of that stuff. It simply isn't going to work. That doesn't mean you cant capture a great recording, you simply have to do it old school and forget the technical tricks.

I suggest you get great sounding drums using good mics then at least play the rhythm parts along with him to cue him where the breaks are. Add a scratch vocal if needed. Then you can go back and add or redo any of that. Your drummer is your click track and so long as the drums sound good you wont need to replace any drums. if you get a weak hit or two, copy and paste hits from other parts of the song. If that doesn't work and you need to have a drummer play like a machine, then you're likely better off using a machine to record the drum parts. You just loose allot of great human element that makes the parts real.

Lives for gear

If any elements of the song need to be on the grid - MIDI programming, for instance - then having a drum track that's not on the grid (and, indeed, that may wander all over the place) is going to be a huge pain in the ass that is impossible to work around.

On the other hand, if it's a basic band set-up, then the all-important consideration is: how tight is the drummer - and, in particular, how consistently does he maintain a tempo? Good, professional drummers will be able to play to a click track. This sounds like someone is doing you a favour, which suggests that his refusal to play to a click is driven more by the fact that he is unable to play to a click, which in turn suggests that maybe - just maybe - his playing won't be all that tight.

At this point, the biggest issue isn't the odd stray hit, but ... if he starts the song at 101 bpm (or whatever tempo he happens to set at the start of the take), where is he at the end. Amateur drummers often have significant tempo fluctuations, based not on finely-tuned artistic expression, but rather on the fact that they've never practised with a metronome, and have never played at a truly consistent tempo in their life.

If the drummer's tempo doesn't wander, and there isn't much MIDI programming to do, then just go with his flow, and play the keyboard parts in after he's tracked the drums; you may then have to align some of the MIDI to the drums.

If the drummer's tempo does wander, or there is extensive MIDI programming that's an integral part of the song, then you need to get a drummer who WILL play to a click. There's just no way you can hit record, have a drummer play for 3 minutes, and be able to use the grid at all in your session.

If most of the instruments, MIDI or otherwise, will be overdubbed, it also becomes increasingly difficult to get a tight performance if the drummer is wandering. The most common issue is speeding up. If you do wind up tracking the drummer without a click, listen to the first few bars, then jump to the last few bars; if you can hear a clear difference in tempo, then this is more likely to lead to a less than great track.

Record your guitar part or bass part first using the click (or both). Make sure it's tight. Then record the drummer playing to the guitar or bass. During tracking when he wanders out of time, hit stop. Go back and make him do it again till its tight. Then, when you have 4 or 5 takes. Comp it, then use your DAWs version of beat detective. Then once you realize that the sound of the drums suck, open up a drum replacement plugin that will spit out a midi track, then buy Superior Drummer 3, assign that to the midi track, and have good sounding time aligned drums. :D :P

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JRDYQRTZ ➡️

It's just, no matter how perfect he is, I'm guessing he isn't going to record with robotically perfect tempo simply due to natural human error, this is want to be able to work around, to be able to make it a little easier for myself when recording everything else.

Why is perfect, roboting timing the goal? Does it help get booties shakin' on the dancefloor?

If this were me I would just record him then TEMPO map his performance then make the TEMPO FIXED, track everybody else then set it back to TEMPO and massage the tempo map, bam

Record the drums and the adjust your DAW to the closest tempo. Then quantize them by hand by slicing and moving the sgments to the nearest quarter note. Sounds tedious, but it only takes about an hour or two. Its how "the pros" do it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRDYQRTZ

Since he's actually a very good drummer...

if he was a VERY good drummer, it seems to me that he would be adaptable to the needs of the situation. VERY good drummers have no problem playing to a click, VERY good drummers actually have no problem putting "feel" into a click-based track.

My impression of your friend's insistence is that there is something else going on. Either a weird ego thing or perhaps a secret fear that he actually cannot play to click if he was to attempt it. Neither situation is my idea of a VERY good drummer.

If you can amass all the musicians in your band together at the same time, have some real rehearsals and then all track live together, you may be able to get results that are better than the click. In fact, that would be my idea of the ideal situation. But it seems from your posts that you are playing all the instruments

except for

the drums. Is this correct?

The idea that you are going to get "feel" and results

better than a click

while overdubbing your instruments one at a time strikes me as laughable ...if it was not so absurd.

How exactly do you think your recording going to go down?

Is he going to just play a drum groove for 5 minutes with no regard for the arrangement? And then you overdub to that? No attention to verses and choruses? Is he going to count measures and put in fills at bar 15 and bar 31? How much "feel" can you expect from someone who is not actually listening to the song as he plays?

Or is some poor guitarist (you) going to have to lay down a guide track without a click and then Mr VERY good drummer is going to follow that wobbly guitar and somehow introduce his magical "feel" into the process?

If you are overdubbing everything yourself, I would advise you to track all your guitars and bass and MIDI to a click yourself, FIRST. Edit them to whatever degree you want, then call in your friend and have him overdub his drum parts. Present him with a fait accompli. Do the drums last. If he wants you to turn off the click sound, then turn off the click sound.

If he 'refuses' to overdub to your tracks because you used a click - then by all means kick him to the curb and hire a

studio

musician.

There is this old saying by Clint Eastwood.... " Well, let's just let him go and see what happens"...

Just letting the drummer go and jam with the guitarist through the headphones gave me better results than having him play to a click.

Quote:

But it seems from your posts that you are playing all the instruments

except for

the drums. Is this correct?

Correct, not many willing and reliable musicians round my area. So I'm pretty much doing what I can to get my own music into the world.

Quote:

How much "feel" can you expect from someone who is not actually listening to the song as he plays?
Or is some poor guitarist (you) going to have to lay down a guide track without a click

His idea was to have me play along at the same time in the room next to.

I think the reason he may not wish to use a click is because it's how he does it for his other bands so of course, he's never really used one. I've listened to a few tracks he's recorded drums for in the same way and my human ear would have assumed he'd recorded to a click unless told otherwise.

I'm glad it's not just me overreacting though. Either way, this is how it's gonna have to go down I think, it's not costing me anything to record so I'll just see how it happens.
I guess more the question I need to ask is if the tracks turn out okay, how would I make them more accessible for me to edit in Logic? That tempo map option intrigued me a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRDYQRTZ ➡️

I guess more the question I need to ask is if the tracks turn out okay, how would I make them more accessible for me to edit in Logic? That tempo map option intrigued me a bit.

Haha.... you wanted a perfect click tempo and now you want tempo map?

Sure you can do that once you have the tracks edited to the tempo.

Might be cool to slowly speed up a song from front to end.

Actually I was thinking (I've done this before with drummers who can't seem to comprehend clicks)... record what he will be playing along to with a click. You will still get some wavering, but if what he's playing to is rock solid then he will be forced to be as well

Lives for gear

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRDYQRTZ ➡️

Correct, not many willing and reliable musicians round my area. So I'm pretty much doing what I can to get my own music into the world.

Do you know how many drummers there are with home studio setups that can record remotely for you?

That's your option if homeboy can't hang.

70% Coffee, 30% Beer

I don't even get the problem....

Me either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshProduce ➡️

Very good drummer= robotically perfect tempo.

:tosses BS flag: Agree to disagree. Music is not generally about "perfect" timing (although this varies w/the genre). If he's good, then his timing is on. Who cares if it's .0001% off? In fact, technical perfection can even detract from a song. Listen to the man play. If it sounds good, why do you give a flip?

I'm with your drummer. I hate metronomes, click tracks etc and will never use. IMO they're things people with lesser timing have to lean on. If you don't have to, why would you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRDYQRTZ ➡️

His idea was to have me play along at the same time in the room next to.

while that is certainly better than either of you playing alone without a click, IMO two people will have difficulty establishing a stable enough groove if you plan to overdub to it. It can be done, but it adds to the difficulty.

I think of it like a chair - a chair with four legs or three legs is stable and won't tip over. A chair that only has two legs is hardly any more stable than a chair with

one

! Forgive me for reading between the lines, but it seems you are not "in a band" yourself, so maybe your own time is a bit shakey? So your basic tracks will be not even two strong legs, but one strong leg and one weak leg?

Your friend is in "other bands", maybe he could introduce you to the bass player from one of those bands to give yourselves a more stable 'platform' for laying down a basic track together. A "tripod". It might be the one thing you have to

pay

for, but it might also be the best money you spend.

Quote:

I think the reason he may not wish to use a click is because it's how he does it for his other bands so of course, he's never really used one. I've listened to a few tracks he's recorded drums for in the same way and my human ear would have assumed he'd recorded to a click unless told otherwise.

Sure if he is recording with a

group

of people - it's much easier to lock in. His "other bands"... do they consist of just two people? "in the same way"... Did he record these solid sounding tracks in the two-person scenario he is suggesting to you?

Quote:

I guess more the question I need to ask is if the tracks turn out okay, how would I make them more accessible for me to edit in Logic? That tempo map option intrigued me a bit

You can edit anything. You don't need a tempo map or a grid, you need to know where you are in your song and be able to listen. I edit classical music and jazz where there is no click and certainly no chance to move just the cello without the piano. One thing these people sometimes do is simply play it again and then edit across takes. This requires a producer's ear during the tracking sessions. You don't wait until everyone has gone home to fix your tracks. You listen back to your take, realize the bridge is messed up. Go back out and play the bridge again, now while you have the song and the tempo in your mind, then insert that bridge into the old take. etc You do your editing by playing.

Keep in mind that everything has its price. Whatever 'feel' you get from a live performance, if it needs to be heavily edited, what happens to that feel? Chop chop chop. What happens to your sound quality when waveforms are regularly time-stretched to fit the tempo maps? Why not just go for a solid groove that needs minimal editing?

Most of the time, a live-performed groove would be my first choice for rock music, but IME, two people is usually one shy of solid rhythm section. If I was looking for an alternative, it would be to finish the tracks yourself with programmed drums and bring him in at the end to overdub.

Lives for gear

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill5 ➡️

Me either.

:tosses BS flag: Agree to disagree. Music is not generally about "perfect" timing (although this varies w/the genre). If he's good, then his timing is on. Who cares if it's .0001% off? In fact, technical perfection can even detract from a song. Listen to the man play. If it sounds good, why do you give a flip?

I'm with your drummer. I hate metronomes, click tracks etc and will never use. IMO they're things people with lesser timing have to lean on. If you don't have to, why would you?

Noone said anything about 'music being just about perfect timing' however.. The better a drummer is. The more concise and tight they perform. Period.
.0001% off? Lol dude.. what are you even talking about? What point are you arguing exactly? A skilled drummer may not NEED A click track.. but he uses one because he's invested in the success of the song. Not his own 'perfect appearance'

This is a matter of teamwork and cooperation. Not dick measuring. Have you recorded drummers who can't keep tempo? It isn't fun.
Why wouldnt someone just use a click track when it could cost someone else valuable time and effort if it weren't a matter of a. Ego or b. Insecurity?

I have perfect tempo. I'm not a particularly experienced drummer.. but I am an experienced pianist. Do I not use a click track while tracking keys? Absolutely not.
I always do it to stay precise. Because it saves me time editing. This is really a no brainer. You're either professional or you like to do what you want at the expense of others.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by joeq ➡️

Most of the time, a live-performed groove would be my first choice for rock music, but IME, two people is usually one shy of solid rhythm section. If I was looking for an alternative, it would be to finish the tracks yourself with programmed drums and bring him in at the end to overdub.

I agree with this sentiment, but I think a good piano player and drummer can hold it down for something to overdub.

A little human variance to the tempo can really make a song sound great. Grid-edited stuff sounds goofy to my ear (think modern pop-punk).

But I agree, you don't need a click if you have a couple stone-cold killers playing together, or 3 pretty good musicians, but one extreme badazz ain't gonna cut it to establish a solid groove.

Lives for gear

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeq ➡️

If you are overdubbing everything yourself, I would advise you to track all your guitars and bass and MIDI to a click yourself, FIRST. Edit them to whatever degree you want, then call in your friend and have him overdub his drum parts. Present him with a fait accompli. Do the drums last.

This is the best way in this case, unless the guy is named Vinnie C.
IMHO. Good luck.

Lives for gear

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill5 ➡️

Me either.

:tosses BS flag: Agree to disagree. Music is not generally about "perfect" timing (although this varies w/the genre). If he's good, then his timing is on. Who cares if it's .0001% off? In fact, technical perfection can even detract from a song. Listen to the man play. If it sounds good, why do you give a flip?

I'm with your drummer. I hate metronomes, click tracks etc and will never use. IMO they're things people with lesser timing have to lean on. If you don't have to, why would you?

Ideally, a drummer, or anyone playing a rhythm instrument, would have timing and feel superior to the click track.
When this is the case, the music is usually all the better for it, IMHO.
Playing to a click, with feeling, is a skill that many good and great musicians have developed over time. However, if they are good enough, they can do as well or better without it. Many in my experience prefer not to use it, if they are good enough. Certainly a lot of great music has been made without it.
Engineers and producers on the other hand generally seem to love click tracks.
In the end, whatever gives the most musical result should be used, IMHO.
My 2c. Good luck.

Lives for gear

If I went into a studio for the first time and I was asked to use a click track during my performance, why wouldn't I..?
You could easily ask the producer to turn down the volume of it and not focus on it if you wanted (unless you simply cannot do 2 things at once)
If the track is starting off with drums.. I would most certainly INSIST that a click track be used when recording a drummer I'm unfamiliar with. If it's 6 tracks in.. And it's time to lay down drums? SURE. Why use a click track?
The rest of the song IS a click track. But as I previously stated.. making music can be a group effort, and when it is.. It's about cooperation. I haven't read every post in this thread so I'm unsure if it were specified whether or not this drummer was laying down the last/first track or what.. but obviously it can come down to genre as well.. but if its the first track and the unknown drummer thinks I'm about to trust his tempo by not using a click track, he's sorely mistaken.

Do I think a click track is always needed? No.
I know drummers personally who dont need that ****. But I also know drummers who don't need that ****.. AND still use it for the sake of "it's better to do it than to not do it" while working on a song. If it's a part of your process.. It's a part of your process. Simple as that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshProduce ➡️

Noone said anything about 'music being just about perfect timing'

? The OP said exactly that, and you repeated it...in fact, you made the alleged point that a very good drummer by definition has "robotically perfect timing." Which is shall we say an interesting viewpoint.

Quote:

The better a drummer is. The more concise and tight they perform. Period.

Concise and tight is all well and fine, but first off you can be that w/o a click track, etc and oh btw it's not the only way to play drums, or anything else. Again it depends on what you're playing, how you want it played, etc. This is speaking generally, FYI.

Quote:

.0001% off? Lol dude.. what are you even talking about? What point are you arguing exactly?

Dude, I'm sorry this is so hard for you. That was a hypothetical/exaggerated number, which should have been obvious. As to what I'm talking about, I can't state it any simpler or plainer than I already have.

Quote:

This is a matter of teamwork and cooperation. Not dick measuring.

Classy analogy. Also nonsensical.

Quote:

Why wouldnt someone just use a click track when it could cost someone else valuable time and effort if it weren't a matter of a. Ego or b. Insecurity?

I love how you and others assume this drummer is a jerk, insecure (etc) simply because he doesn't want to use a click track. Maybe he is. Maybe not. Maybe there is another reason. I don't know, and neither do you. And since the OP has already made it clear the guy is good and his timing excellent, who cares? If the OP decides it's a show-stopper, he can pursue other options.

Quote:

You're either professional or you like to do what you want at the expense of others.

Or you explain this is simply how you do things and the person interested in your services is free to accept or decline. That isn't necessarily "unprofessional." PS it's not like he's being hired out; he's doing it as a favor, for free. I think it's reasonable to say we all have certain things we do a certain way and if someone asked us to do it another way would decline for whatever reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeq ➡️

If I was looking for an alternative, it would be to finish the tracks yourself with programmed drums and bring him in at the end to overdub.

Agreed. See there are options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by edva ➡️

Ideally, a drummer, or anyone playing a rhythm instrument, would have timing and feel superior to the click track.
When this is the case, the music is usually all the better for it, IMHO.
Playing to a click, with feeling, is a skill that many good and great musicians have developed over time. However, if they are good enough, they can do as well or better without it. Many in my experience prefer not to use it, if they are good enough. Certainly a lot of great music has been made without it.
Engineers and producers on the other hand generally seem to love click tracks.
In the end, whatever gives the most musical result should be used, IMHO.
My 2c. Good luck.

Someone gets it, thank you

Drummer Can't Make a Track for My Guitar

Source: https://gearspace.com/board/newbie-audio-engineering-production-question-zone/1184162-drummer-wont-record-w-click-issue.html

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